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This is torture that will not end until you can believe in witches.

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234 No. 234 edit
I believe we can all agree the "shkannotrice" answer is Ryukshi's way of saying "Here you go now shut the fuck up and leave me alone you pieces of shit. -_-"

I mean while I feel that alot of people out right dispise KNM's answer of Rosatrice, I do feel it has some merit behind it all.

Rosa being the culprit also does answer the Who, the why, and the how. Taking into consideration that we observe only the games Beatrice herself has hosted, Rosa being the culprit fits into a lot of the red truths.

I also believe it is to some understanding that chapters 5~8 are meant for more character devving as an over arching story while supplying the reader with hints on how to answer the original tale of chapters 1~4.

also all that Rose symbolism...

I would like to challenge counter arguments on this theory only as a way to further seek the truth. Consider this as another passing witch wanting to stave off boredom for the dread it might actually kill her.
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>> No. 235 edit
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Well, if you check most of the threads here in /theories/ you will find that the majority of people agree that KNM's answer is wrong since he makes a few assumptions about the red and some other points that don't make much sense. Not to mention you can fit almost anyone as the culprit if you take the red truth and nothing else into consideration (Rosa and or Kyrie were very popular theories pre Ep3 even).

The reason why it feels like "here you go" was because, I assume, he thought he made it quite clear that shkannon was the solution, but he was trying to push it without being blatant (of course he then retroactively changed that and just spelled it out to all the readers of the manga in Ep8, showing a more in depth Yasu backstory with Beatrice costume and all).

I mean overall most people still have doubts about it mainly because that was Ryukishi's goal: to make a unsolved mystery. In fact the only thing we really don't know at this point (I think) was the events that lead to Battler and Eva surviving. If it did happen as shown in the Ep7 TP, then Kyrie's actions show that we are missing something that would cause her to act in that way, and maybe why Eva's stayed silent too... I think there was a decent theory about those but I can't recall.

Either way back on the topic of the Rosa thing, just recently Ryukishi went overseas and commented on it.
>"I then would go on to ask about the fan theory that the character of Rosa Ushiromiya and Beatrice in Umineko are, in fact, the same person. Ryukishi explained that he was aware of this particular theory, and would go on to admit that he sometimes showed references to false theories, such as this one, to throw off and trick his readers."

I personally find it easier to just think of the whole thing like this: Each Ep has it's own solution, which Shkannon can be the solution to but so can others. The true events of that day have Shkannon at the core of the story, whether or not they killed anyone is the cat box however.
>> No. 236 edit
I see, although Shkannotrice in itself breaks several rules from both Knox and Van Dine if I recall, it also conflicts with Yasu's past as apparently they can draw. niether Shannon nor Kannon have shown that they can be in any way artistic, the idea of Rosa makes sense however in this aspect because she IS head of a fashion company and is able to make things herself.

However I believe it's a universal culprit for chapters 1~4 as the game master has always been Beatrice up until that point. I mean, George is also a plausible culprit as he has shown to not give two shits about anyone but Shannon. Where as with Shannon she felt really timid about committing murder if we are to take that scene in ep7 as a serious hint.
>> No. 238 edit
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Actually Ryu purposely rewrote Knox in order for Shkannon to fit. That's why #5 was omitted since it doesn't allow for stereotypes to be the culprit (servants) and most of the other rules now allow for leeway compared to the original Knox.
Dine was never confirmed as well, Ryu pulled a fast one on us, and if you look at the scenes where the reds are used, they are actually referring to on a different mystery altogether, rather than the Rokkenjima gameboard. Dug up a picture of the manga, seems he was generous here and made it much clearer.

Not too sure where the artist part comes into play though, I think for the magic circles, maybe? Maria herself was able to draw them perfectly, so with enough practice anybody could really.
>> No. 239 edit
but Shkannon in and of itself breaks serveral laws of Knox even without the 5th. Also with Will's blade of Vandine we still have holes in the Shkannotrice theory. Also If we are to believe Touya/ the Witch of Theatergoing is in anyway a vessel for the author's mouth, this is all but an elaborate ruse to weed out all the people who accept this farfetched answer just to satisfy our never ending curiosity. So instead I propose this;

Shannon and Kannon were accomplices as well as Nanjo. Giving the Culprit more than 1 Master key and a guarantee of a falsified corpse.
>> No. 241 edit
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Well like I said Dine isn't used at all, and Knox was reworded to be vague so that he could make it work.
-Clues are presented for disguise, since they are never seen together.
-The culprit is mentioned at the early part of the story. After all if a character uses a false name that doesn't mean they were not mentioned.
-The mention of multiple personalities are presented in both Ep2 and Ep3.
>> No. 242 edit
Will Uses Dine to rule out the involvement of the servant in the prologue of EP7.

Never being shown simultaneously does not count as evidence of disguise. More sufficient evidence would be at least one article of clothing belonging to the respective character found in their room.

Also if we are to assume Skannotrice is the truth
There is no foreshadowing nor hints to indicate that Shannon had discovered the gold.

Vane Dine is presented to us through Will and I believe this was the author's intent for us to consider these rules. Not because "oooh this sounds cool I'm gonna use this." I would like to give Ryukshi more credit than that.

Also if Ryukshi was familiar with fan theories and alluding them to throw off his readers, Shkannotrice is no different.
>> No. 243 edit
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Not to be rude, but the Dine issue is set in stone. Like you say, he uses Dine, but that was in a different fragment. The possibility of a servant culprit is never denied for the Rokkenjima mystery, period. I mean the facts are there, whether or not you want to believe it.

But in regards to the evidence, this is something I actually take great interest in. Ryukishi has shown multiple times that the lack of something is all the clues he will provide for a mystery.
Ex. the lack of any evidence for almost every one of the closed rooms.
Which of course is ironic considering this whole story could be described as a homage to the golden age of detective fiction, but in fact most of the story can't be considered a mystery going by those standards in the first place. The famous line found in the hidden 2nd OP "No Knox, No Dine, No Fair. In other words this is not a mystery." comes to mind. Although, you can still have a 'mystery' without Dine and Knox after all, just not orthodox detective fiction, for the most part.

Again I refer to the catbox conclusion at the end of my first post here as suitable solution. It allows room for most of the popular theories and ultimately it is what we were presented with Ep8 after all, at least until the manga was done. Unlike a few of the old members of /seacats/ who basically popularized the Shkannon theory pre-chiru, Umineko isn't the hot topic anymore. For the most part people who like the "Rosa/Yasu is all to mislead you" theory generally won't believe anything you say, and this seems like it is starting to get to that point.
>> No. 244 edit
Not to be rude be it appears you seem to be dancing around my questions. I understand that I'm late to the party in regards for discussion of crying seagulls long after the cat box was dumped into the ocean.

Saying lack of evidence for all closed room murders justifies Shkannotrice is absurd.

After Shannon was pronounced dead in EP 1, all characters including the detective see Kannon and acknowledge his existence/presence.

So if Shannon is the keeper of Kannon's personalty, then why is George mourning the death of his fiance? The Detective is not subject to magic, but tricks.

So saying Kanon's presence is magical is purely false. Ruling out The red truth,When ever Shannon dies, Kannon disappears forever.
>> No. 245 edit
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Fair enough. I was avoiding the questions since we never stopped talking about Dine and Knox. All the other points are really moot in comparison since there are so many possible solutions, that is what I meant by no longer the hot topic. Answering every small trick is pointless since it's all been said before and can be found online. Pretty sure KNW attacked Shkannon directly since he knew you can't deny a servant culprit(not that I recall for sure though).

But I'll address the Ep1 trick anyway.
George never sees the body, so he cannot confirm the death and thus mourns. Everyone sees Kanon, just as they did yesterday, which means that if they were disguised everyone was fooled yesterday(as well previous events up to this point) which means the disguise is factually full proof, even if arguably not. Of course I think "Our Confessions" adds a few accomplices for Ep1, which make things a lot easier to hide (but I never read it). You could argue that George might have been in on it too if you want to fake the mourning. But considering Yasu is the one who kills probably not.

Then of course later Kanon runs off to the boiler room for no reason and gets "attacked". Being the only person who is found still alive and taken away from the detective, literally seconds after he finds him. Battler is then told Kanon has died later. Now that they have faked their deaths they can run around without worry etc.

I mean Shkannon works for every mystery presented after all. If you think that Ryu made it a false solution, wouldn't that mean it is even more likely that it works for the gameboard tricks?

Last edited at 15/07/17(Fri)12:44:10
>> No. 246 edit
the problem with the "oh Kannon confirmed dead now shkannotrice can run around freely" is that there are only 8 people left alive after this. There isn't enough people to need to worry about the ability to roam.

It doesn't answer EP 3 however as both Kannon AND Shannon are identified.

The only way for any of Shkannotrice is partially answer is if the following;

Shkannon is biologically male. During EP 3 when the gold is founded, George decides to go through with the murders dispite Lion's loss. In his insanity he meets up with whom he assumes to be Shannon and when it's revealed that Shannon was actually a dude, George flips and kills Lion. In his hysteria he kills himself after killing Nanjo. Eva then kills Battler so that she can hold the truth to herself and the reason why she is so silent is to protect her son even in the afterlife, so that his name would not be slandered as a murderer or assaulted with rumors by the media.

Ushiromiya George is the culprit and Ushiromiya Lion(aka Shannon,Kannon,Yasu) is the accomplices.

the 17th body belongs to the deceased Erika Furudo.

Ushiromiya Maria played a part in the orchestration of these murders.[bl]

Last edited at 15/07/17(Fri)12:38:12
>> No. 247 edit
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But they weren't? Battler and the cousins even ask to see the bodies and get denied. The only time Battler even gets close to checking a singular body is when George is found, at which point a body that looks like Shannon is there in the distance faced down(I think Battler even closes his eyes to mourn George). I mean the only kinda difficult mystery in regards to Yasu was Shannon's Ep2 death, in which Battler actually checked the body by lifting up and looking at her face. Of course in that case it was suicide, which explains why Ryukishi changed Ep3 from "Land" to "Banquet" to be easier by showing more Yasu backstory, since most people didn't expect suicide to be an option. The more you know.

Anyway, the detective never sees Shannon and Kanon together in any episode either(ofc there is that ep5 thing, but one the other /theories/ threads explains that). I mean if you want to know how Yasu works with every mystery just read through the game again, you don't need me to explain them. I did back when the ps3 patch came out and I was still surprised by the amount of things I found(the voices were nice touch too).

If that doesn't satisfy you there is this thread that a new member (at the time) decided to make to play the devil's advocate for the "Yasu is wrong" solution. I just posted random things jokingly in that thread, but the others seriously debated a lot of points you may be wondering about.

There are also a number of threads in /theories/, while most of those are on other topics they do touch upon this quite a bit.

Again, you can't deny Yasu. Literally everyone has tried (even the people who supported it the most), but you are free to try and make another solution along side of it(Like in Ep5 when to reach a stalemate Erika had to make a new theory to cancel Battler's). In any case I think that is all that needs to be said really.

MOD EDIT: This thread was restored in a makeshift way after a database transfer. This is why all the timestamps are horribly wrong.

Last edited at 15/07/17(Fri)12:40:20
>> No. 248 edit
Jessica was right beside Kannon until the moment he passed away in EP1.

but I will check out this thread.

Last edited at 15/07/17(Fri)12:38:27
>> No. 251 edit
I see your point, you mean "why the shkanontrice solution is assumed as the ultimate solution while there are so many plausible answers which answer the who how and whydunnit and also fit the red just fine like KNM's Rosatrice?"

In my interpretation, that's the whole point of Umineko, Ryu always intended to create a mystery with no clearly definitive solution. So Umineko is wrote in a way which allows many "plausible solutions in regards to who how whydunnit and fits all the red"

You see, all the classic mysteries are wrote in a format which allows only one solution, it’s just a matter of puzzling all the alibies and the hints and possibilities and you will find only one possible culprit, that’s a classic mystery right? If in a classic mystery you are able to find an alternative solution, you may be ruining the legitimacy of the author's answer. In this sense, a Classic mystery really is a logic game which a super smart robot will be able to solve by simply puzzling the possibilities.

But Umineko is different, it cannot be solved as a Classic mystery because it simply allows many possibilities to exist and then we goats keep ripping the guts of Umineko and forging many solutions, in fact Ryu does have fun reading all the solutions the fans make up!

That's why Rosatrice, black battler and many other solutions exist and remain consistent with the Red, that is the essence of the whole catbox thing.

BUT! That does not mean there is no ultimate solution as it does exist! The factor that hints for this solution is the "without love it can’t be seen"
One can argue Rosatrice needs love to be seen, but unfortunately not as much as shkanontrice.

Shkanontrice is heavily implied throughout the whole series, once you learn about it, you read a completely different story, trust me, you really do.

For example, the sandy beach scene in the beginning of the EP2 which portrays Shannon Kanon and Beatrice talking about furniture stuff and love, which is mostly always considered a useless boring slow-pacing beginning of the Episode by fist-time readers, IS ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING SCENES OF THE SERIES! Once you know how shkanontrice works, this scene becomes far from useless, it shows a conversation of the inner parts of Yasu, and basically explains most of her feelings. All the wavelength bullshit is just a figurative way to say only Shannon and Kanon can see Beatrice, which also implies for their connection. This scene for example would be completely useless if you assume Rosatrice is the answer.

In fact, Rosatrice makes many scenes completely meaningless while Shkanontrice gives them full meaning, in fact Shkanontrice gives meaning to everything about Umineko.

Though very hidden, the Shkanontrice hints are given throughout the whole series, not only in form of alibies and logical hints. The point is that the most important hints for Shkanontrice are given through warm conversations with the cousins and conversations between Shannon and Kanon themselves (try taking a look at “goats reading seacats” if you intend to see many of the hints for Shkanontrice, there are a lot). It is a mystery which cannot be solved purely by logic as a robot would do, you need a heart to understand it, you need to be able to understand feelings such as sadness, loneliness, wrath and love.

By solving the feelings of the characters you will be able to see Shkanontrice

Some people may be arguing:

- Disbeliever: “how could Shannon and Kanon be both declared dead while Yasu is alive doing the job? Then Yasu should not be considered someone at all? Should be considered a different being not referred by the name Shannon nor Kanon? Is that what you want me to believe?”
- Answer: Well, yes. That is how the logic works on this one.
- Disbeliever: “that’s bullshit! It’s a so unrealistic interpretation you are making! It should not even be considered!”

- Disbeliever: “how can be said in red that there are 18 humans but also only 17 persons? So I should just assume Shannon +Kanon = 2 humans = 1 person?”
-Answer: yeah, that’s it, unless you assume this sentence works on
“the constant 15 humans + 1(Yasu) + 1(Erika) + 1(Kinzo’s body) = 18 humans
the constant 15 persons + 1(Yasu) + 1(Erika) + = 17 persons
which assumes Kinzo’s corpse accounts for one human and not a body”
- Disbeliever: “that’s bullshit! It’s too much subjective!”

- Disbeliever: “sometimes Yasu seems to be counted as 1 person, sometimes 2 persons, sometimes 2 humans, sometimes no one, is that how it works really?”
- Answer: pretty much, yeah
- Disbeliever: “that’s bullshit! I won’t buy it!”

- Disbeliever: “it is declared by Will that a servant cannot be the culprit, so how could Shkanontrice?”
- Answer: you know, Shannon just found the gold and became the successor, she just pretended to work as a servant while she really is the heir, also, she is Kinzo’s child anyway, so she is not reeeeeally a servant come on!
-Disbeliever: “that’s bullshit! It’s disobeying the objective declaration of the red!”

- Disbeliever: “Beatrice declares in red that the sin is committed against not herself but to another person which is shown to be Shannon, so since Shkanontrice assumes Shannon = Beatrice, then the sin would actually be committed against Beatrice herself so it’s a contradiction!”
-Answer: come on, you can overlook this one :D It’s all about the different personalities stuff again.
- Disbeliever: “That’s bullshit! It clearly is a logical contradiction!

- Disbeliever: “you may be right that Ryu always intended Shkanontrice to be the ultimate solution, but you must assume that given all these contradictions, he just screwed up his story”
-Answer: you need love to understand it
-Disbeliever: “it is not a true mystery, it is full of flaws”

People may be everywhere complaining how there seems to be so many contradictions between the Shkanontrice solution and the red truths because the necessary Shkanontrice interpretations of the red are not totally logical and straightforward.

My point is that Umineko is not totally logical as some want it to be, that’s how the “without love, it can’t be seen” fits in, LOVE IS SOMETHING TOTALLY ILLOGICAL. You can overcome those issues if you look at the red with love. If you look with love, you will understand how Shannon is Beatrice and is not at the same time, you will see how Shannon is a servant and is not, if you put love in your interpretation, everything will fall in place.

That’s the point of the final choice of Umineko, the trick ending or the magic one. If you are to read Umineko coldly you are fit for the simple and cold trick ending, if you read with love you should be able to see the beauty of the magic ending.

Erika is the representations of all those who read the story and red truth coldly and without love, in fact her background is something about how she was betrayed by her loved one and since then she never again felt love for anything, that’s why she is always portrayed finding possible logical solutions but never the real truth, just like the readers without love.

At least that’s how I interpreted Umineko and why I believe Shkanontrice is the intended ultimate solution for the first 4 Episodes.
>> No. 252 edit
Not sure if copy pasta, but yeah. This is a decent write up.

Although for records sake, again the servant red isn't applied to Umineko, and I don't think its ever stated in red that there is 18 exactly, just that there is no more than 18. So the only logic is "15 persons + 1(Yasu) + 1(Erika) + = 17 persons". So basically the only argument is the "Yasu's identities shouldn't count as separate", which you explain pretty well is the point of the story.
>> No. 293 edit
Ushiromiya Sento is how you read his name. He is not Battler and the red truth about Battler not being the culprit was nothing more than an illusion of japanese wordplay. Sento can be the culprit.
>> No. 294 edit
Sento, the person you believe to be named battler, is not a detective and subject to give his own story.

Last edited at 20/06/01(Mon)12:40:33

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